Saber: The Rise of DeFi on Solana ft. Dylan Macalinao
Speaker 1: Welcome to The Jump Off Point- Crypto Edition. On our first formal episode in our new crypto series, Jump Capital partner and crypto co- lead Saurabh Sharma interviews the founder of one of the largest projects on Solana, Saber, the automated market maker making serious waves throughout the ecosystem. Before we dive into this incredible conversation, a quick word regarding our new crypto podcast episodes from your host and crypto co- leads here at Jump Capital, Peter Johnson and Saurabh Sharma.
Saurabh Sharma: A big hello to all crypto believers, crypto intriguers, even the crypto skeptics. My name is Saurabh Sharma, partner at Jump Capital, where I'm co- leading the crypto investing effort. And I'm very excited to launch Jump Capital's crypto native podcast series, where we intend to dive deep in everything crypto and hopefully unlock an incremental channel for your crypto education. A quick intro on Jump Capital, we are a nine- year- old venture capital firm investing in application software, FinTech, IT and data infrastructure, and digital media. I've also been an early investor in the crypto space, where we started investing almost seven years ago. My partner in crime, Peter, can add more color to our crypto journey so far.
Peter Johnson: Hey everyone, this is Peter Johnson and I co- lead Jump's crypto investing strategy. We've been investing in crypto companies and projects since 2015 and have invested in over 40 leaders in the space, from international exchanges like Bitso and CoinDCX to DeFi projects like 0x and Saber to blockchain infrastructure plays like Eden. Recently, we've also been actively investing in DAOs, gaming, and NFT platforms.
Saurabh Sharma: As me and Peter thought about the content for this podcast series, we realized that given our backgrounds in FinTech and computing infrastructure, we sit at a unique vantage point of being a great voiceover between TradFi to DeFi, inaudible, distributed systems and decentralized systems. Our hope is to both educate a broader audience who are still learning about the space as well as dive deeper into areas like technical nuances of protocols, market structure, and macro perspectives.
Peter Johnson: In this new podcast series on crypto, we'll be talking to leading founders, builders, and investors to share their knowledge and explore the space together, enabling all audiences to stay ahead of the curve in this rapidly developing space. Saurabh, my cohost, is kicking it off with a great guest today, and next episode I'll be chatting with the founder of DeFi's most notorious incubator. So hit subscribe, stay tuned, and reach out to us with any feedback or suggestions on topics or guests.
Saurabh Sharma: All right, super excited to have you as our guest on our first crypto native podcast, Dylan. I will say what a journey for Saber, obviously quite talked about project, and Solana, highest TBL DAB. I think even today, getting close to 2 billion. You guys obviously reached peak at high end of the market. I think you did touch 4 billion at that point, so pretty phenomenal. And I think you're somewhat of a case study on how to do things right in the DeFi ecosystem, at least in my view. We will talk more about that later, but let's start with your background and journey to crypto. How did it start? And as they say, how did you get into the crypto rabbit hole?
Dylan: For sure. Yeah, thanks for the introduction. Thanks for the kind of words. Yeah, it definitely is a rabbit hole, I'd say. I think anyone in crypto can empathize with that. I got in during the 2017 cycle. So I was living in Austin at the time and there are a lot of crypto companies out there, crypto funds like Multicoin. So Kyle from Multicoin, he actually used to host a meetup in Austin. That was my first learning about what's happening, learning about Ethereum, the idea you could actually program things on top of the blockchain, back then I was fiddling with Bitcoin and then Doge coin. My brother and co- founder Ian, he actually was buying Doge coin back in 2014. And so fell down the rabbit hole, first as an investor and then started building along with Ian. So Ian had started this project called Abacus while he was still at Austin and I was doing tokenized securities, ended up joining the team for a bit, and was my start in crypto.
Saurabh Sharma: That's awesome. And both of you went to UT Austin?
Dylan: Yes. So I went for actually one year and so Ian was a senior at the time. And so he got into Y Combinator for that Abacus startup, the crypto startup. So I ended up basically dropping out of school and joining him on that.
Saurabh Sharma: I did not know that. All right. Well for the audience, could you give an overview on Saber? What is it and what are its main use cases today, at least?
Dylan: For sure. Yeah, so Saber is a AMM on Solana, so automate market maker. Essentially what it does is it provides liquidity for people to easily swap between different stable pairs of assets. So most common stable pairs, like USD pegged stablecoins, so USDC and USDT, for example, as the biggest ones, but supporting any assets that are similarly priced. For example, stake SOL, people who are staking into Solana network and basically want liquid, inaudible a token in order to easily swap between that's stake version and the normal SOL. We have pools for Bitcoin, for other kinds of assets, and we're really focused on a cross- chain asset approach. So right now we have assets that are bridged directly from a bunch of different chains, so obviously Solana, Ethereum, Celo, BSC, Terra, and a lot more coming.
Saurabh Sharma: Saber probably was one of the first at scale inaudible on Solana. And in my opinion, a very high value use case, stablecoin swap. By the way, I must say it was a great idea to change the name from Stable Swap, I think when we met, but in some sense, it is also a very good example to showcase, in production, Solana value prop in terms of speed and fees. This is an activity every crypto native person goes through, stable swapping, and it showcases how seamless it could be on Solana. How did you make that call to build on Solana? Because you also had done some work on SOL, as you mentioned, and I'm sure you checked on other L1s, maybe L2s, I don't know if anyone was alive at the time, but how did you decide, building Solana, given you a pretty early in the developer ecosystem of Solana when you started building that? So curious about that choice.
Dylan: For sure. The initial version of Saber, which as you alluded to was called Stable Swap, was created as part of the first Solana of hackathon. So that was way back in end of last year, I think November, but back then, Solana was even newer than it is now, and so the developer ecosystem was pretty lacking. For us, working on Saber or Stable Swap back then, it was really just to try out a bunch of different chains. We had heard a lot of cool things about Solana from hearing SPF talk about it, hearing Serum, the idea that you can put order books actually on a fully decentralized blockchain. And so yeah, just wanted to try it out, but then the developer ecosystem or developer experience was just way too rough back then, and so we decided not to build on it back then and expand on that a bit. The way that Solana was designed was to be very broad and very general, and no- one had created a very opinionated framework yet for how to code on Solana, code Solana smart contracts. And because of that, it was just challenging. In, I believe it was April this year was when we found out about Anchor, which was a framework that Armani Ferrante, who's a developer at Alameda, developed and that was a more opinionated way of writing Solana smart contracts. It was a little bit similar to what we were used to working in Solidity, and so decided at that point it was time to take a step forward. We saw Solana as this very high potential ecosystem. Definitely people like Alameda, people like inaudible who are investing heavily in this ecosystem, and we really just felt like if we build good products, especially right now, there's the opportunity to build very core DeFi infrastructure products, the kind of DeFi blue chips on Ethereum, potentially they could be successful very fast. And I think that became true of Saber.
Saurabh Sharma: And is it fair to say that you picked up Rust on the way? Because it sounds like you were coding in Solidity, and then it was a switch back, and then say let me go and start learning, and then building alongside.
Dylan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Ian's the main engineer in our team. He basically was learning Rust while we were fundraising for Saber. So yeah, definitely was a challenge at first, but I think Anchor, as I was saying, the framework Armani created really made it easy to slip into the SLI ecosystem.
Saurabh Sharma: That's amazing. We're all big fans of Solana here and obviously amazed by its growth, but taking maybe a bit of an objective view where Solana is today and now you've been working with it for some time, what do you think are some of still the pitfalls and maybe opportunities, maybe a better word, for Solana to improve upon the developer ecosystem, the developer tooling, and then also to be serving broader and more complex use cases?
Dylan: Yeah. I mean I guess the elephant in the room is the SLI network going down a couple of weeks ago. I think obviously Solana is still in the main- net beta mode. There's still a lot of bugs that need to be fixed. And just, in general, coming from a developer standpoint, code has bugs inevitably, and it's all about finding the most important bugs to solve first, and then from there, iterating it really fast in it. I think Solana actually is doing the right thing in terms of launching something that is in beta mode, it's not perfect, and they make it very clear as well that it's not perfect, but that's definitely a challenge that needs to be fixed over time. And apart from that too, a lot of people talk about RPC node infrastructure. So the Solana of blockchain itself is very fast. I mean you can see that actually on the blockchain, it handles inaudible transactions per second. But a lot of times when everything's hype, NFT drops, or say some token like IDEO that happens, apps on Solana basically halt and you can't do anything. And that's where we do this RPC infrastructure, which essentially is these servers that are communicating with the blockchain in order to give you the data and allow you to actually transact on Solana. And so yeah, I've talked to a lot of good teams, people even coming from very traditional server architecture background and be like," Hey, we see a lot of value in solving this problem." So I'm pretty bullish as well on that problem getting fixed pretty soon. Yeah, and then apart from that, I guess it was talking about pitfalls. There's I would say bias towards building things that are really complicated right now. There's a lot of builders right now on Solana, but still not too many products that have actually launched successfully. And so I would say there's no shame in building out these primitives right now. I think that people basically look at what's working at Ethereum as core primitives and take them to Solana. They'd already be a ton better because they're both in Solana and therefore you don't have to worry about gas fees. The US experience can be a lot more elegant. And so yeah, I would say definitely would like more people to focus on these primitives and, from there, transition to these more complicated features.
Saurabh Sharma: No, all that makes sense. One of the other things we hear a lot, which I think you would probably agree, is the security audit backlog. Given the smart contract exposure risk, I think that's a challenge and obviously Solana being relatively new on the block, maybe somewhat less standardized modules out there. I think that's probably another challenge a lot of people face, both for shipping fast, but then also making a secure framework out there.
Dylan: Definitely. Yeah, and that's something too that we've been actively trying to work on as well. How can we basically package more of these protocols that would be similar across all different blockchain apps in a way that's more standardized, and that way, the thing gets inaudible once. It's very common, Ethereum, you have the synthetics, liquidity mining contract, for example, that everyone uses.
Saurabh Sharma: A lot of OpenZeppelin type contracts out there on Ethereum stock.
Dylan: Exactly. So yeah, definitely trying to help push that as well.
Saurabh Sharma: Just on that topic of what you mentioned, the Ethereum apps and scaling them in Solana, I mean there has been good amount of decent debate, also publicly on Twitter as well, on Ethereum teams complaining about Solana projects copying Ethereum projects, which to me is just so antithesis to the whole open source, open finance moniker, but curious on your views on that and how have you responded to or maybe you've replied back to those folks?
Dylan: Yes, Solana is in a very unique position as an L1, since it's not EVM compatible. I mean you literally can't copy and paste Ethereum solidity code on Solana, you basically have to write everything from scratch. Obviously, there's things like math that might be inspired by things that are from other blockchains. The main one I'm referring to is a lot of people look at similarities between Curve and Saber, since both of them are stable swaps. But yeah, I mean I agree with you as well, I think it's anti the open source mentality that crypto should be, and I would say too, it really isn't copy and pasting since you have to rewrite everything in Rust in order for it to actually work on Solana. And I think that's also why you're not seeing these DeFi blue chips come on to Solana right now, because it's just very different. There's EVM solutions that have been coming out like Neon Labs, for example, that has created a EVM solution. I think at the end of the day though, native apps on Solana will probably perform better. So if you have a native app that works just as good as a EVM based app on Solana, the native app is going to win out. It'll be interesting to see if people like Curve, Swap, SushiSwap end up actually building on Solana, but until then I'm pretty bullish on native teams.
Saurabh Sharma: Yeah, that's right. And I mean you can get a kickstarter, but you can get a kickstarter in many ways, but you have to still solve for your own composability, your own cross- chain bridging challenges, which if you start on Rust, and then, as I say, non- EVM kickstart, it's a very different way to solve those two problems versus going the other way around. So it's completely opposite. You guys have been pretty exemplary in terms of scaling and shipping fast, launching new tokens and pools, and one of your motto of your team has been ship fast, and we've all seen that in your product roll- outs. Share with the developer audience on how the DNA has helped Saber, and how do you balance in terms of stability and security, given the exposure here? That's probably one of the biggest worry, I'm assuming, most developers have to ship something too soon and then have a rug pull or some kind of a situation, and you have to live it up for a long time.
Dylan: Yeah, on the first point, shipping fast, definitely something that we think about a lot. I think this is general startup advice is that a lot of people want their first product to be really perfect so they spend a lot of time just working on that one product. You have a feature like scope creep, where you end up just building a ton of things. We're really a fan of just ship something out fast and from there, iterate on it based off what users are saying is the most important things that they need, obviously fixing bugs. The one thing we don't compromise on though is security, as you alluded to. I think when you're dealing with money, especially with Saber,$ 3 billion locked in these contracts, definitely have to be very careful about how we approach security. One component that is audits, but as you said earlier, there's a huge backlog right now of security audits in Solana, which makes it a little bit challenging to ship fast but also make sure you get audits. And so what we've been doing is just peer reviewing with other developers in the space, and apart from that, just doing tons of testing ourselves to the point where it's almost excessive. But yeah, I'd say ship fast, but ship secure.
Saurabh Sharma: Anyone coming from the Web 2. 0 world, a lot of companies there are trying to go around this product led growth movement. I think crypto is the ultimate example of product led growth. It's really a product you just put it out there and let the community test it, give you feedback, iterate it. But I think one of the main components of that fast community adoption also, which I think is going to be a big piece of all the crypto products in the future, is design. It's such a crucial part of that adoption. I think Saber has done that very well in that area. Can you talk about why is that and maybe a little bit about your product design thought process?
Dylan: Yeah, I 100% agree with that sentiment. I would say that definitely product led growth is the way to go, and I think with crypto, and especially Solana, the switching costs are so low, so users naturally just gravitate to whatever are the best products right now to use. I think inaudible in crypto are just a lot less than in general product development, and in terms of design, I come from a product design background, so before this, I was doing design for both crypto startups and then also just general FinTech startups, and we definitely think a lot about how to make crypto simpler. A lot of it's just thinking about your users. I think for the initial versions of Saber, we were definitely thinking of it as for people who are coming from Ethereum. And so in that case, we didn't have to dumb it down or simplify it in ways that maybe if you're targeting a more non- crypto native user base, for example, NFTs, I think, they try target people who are just thinking about NFTs from their friends or from the media, have never used crypto asset before, don't already have money on crypto maybe. So for those people, you'd have to design for a different audience, but just be very intentional about who you're designing for and what their comfort level is within crypto. And then from there, just designing something that's really simple. Use simple words, use standardized words. Even in DeFi especially, you have a lot of these themed products right now where they have weird names for winter farms or stuff like that. That's something that I try to build away from. I think it's fun, but at the same time, it's pretty confusing if you're going between different crypto apps and they look different. So yeah, I think standardization will be super important for crypto user experience.
Saurabh Sharma: Yeah, absolutely. And especially I think when you're trying to go mainstream, which I think you're obviously still pretty early on that, it took some time for crypto natives to get comfortable and even up to a couple of months ago, most of them look like Linux terminals. So in some sense, I think that design piece is extremely important. Two big topics in DeFi today are composability and cross- chain. Almost every app is kind of working to some orientation towards solving those two challenges. Starting with composability, you guys have done a pretty good job so far, especially in Solana. How do you guys approach in terms of prioritizing the partnerships and integrations, because you can go pretty wide pretty quickly, and maybe the thought process that helped you scale up fast in prioritizing those?
Dylan: Yeah. I do think that composability is actually the strongest in crypto for protocol because the way I think of it is Saber isn't really an app as much as it is a protocol. And so the way it gains value is everyone is following the same protocol for how they do things. In terms of prioritization, that really is our main priority right now is basically how can we, one, get ingrained with all these other applications and two, be the first place that people are able to use certain applications or assets. So for example, with Saber, it's launching assets very fast. That's one of our favorite things is right on our announcement post is launching the first Celo Dollar pool on Solana, because I think there's a lot of value into being first in crypto, especially for these things that people have been waiting on for a very long time. And in terms of composability, a lot of my focus is really just helping other teams in the space. I think working in crypto is just so very new, especially coming from a non- crypto background, and so how do we help these teams to build these applications? And at the same time, how do we get them to integrate Saber? Main one is using Saber LP tokens as forms of collateral, so I've been working on different lending protocols. There's one called Parrot finance, who are similar to a MakerDAO of Solana. They have their own stablecoin that's collateralized by different assets. And so we work with them to basically have Saber LPs as one form of collateral for the Pi stablecoin. So yeah, definitely think it's important to be integrated as soon as possible.
Saurabh Sharma: Yeah, one thing that's amazing is that how many projects, even though they might be competing in some sense, either today or potentially in the future, I've been pretty impressed with the general camaraderie and helping each other out because I think the right folks know that you have to grow this ecosystem before you start encroaching on it or cannibalizing. So that's pretty phenomenal. The second topic I mentioned was cross- chain, which is a big topic. Of course, we are, I think, in a multi- chain world, at least today, and foreseeable future. And every chance of growing, as said, even Solana may not be that, to your point, and that is certainly true for many other newer chains and so forth. What are your plans about that and how do you envision to be the dominant EMM across chains? Yeah, maybe we start with that and then we probably get into your partnership with Wormhole. I know you've been working on that a little bit.
Dylan: Yeah. I definitely do envision Saber to be a very big part of the cross- chain future. So we're not Solana maximalists. I think that every blockchain will have its own community and its own use case that gravitate towards that for whatever reason. One I think that Solana will play a pretty big part in is being the execution layer within DeFi. So because Solana is so much more efficient in terms of transaction costs, scales better. I see a lot of things basically happening in Solana. Maybe they retain from another chain, like Ethereum, for example, similar to how L2s might work, people can bridge into Solana using probably something like Wormhole, as you mentioned, and asset swaps. That could be something where they go into Solana, we support every single different wrapped asset. And to get a little bit ahead of myself with Wormhole, when you bridge over assets through different bridges, you end up with different representations of these assets. For example, if I bridge Ethereum USDC over to Solana, I don't actually get the native version of USDC on Solana that every app is using, I actually get this Ethereum wrapped version of USDC, which then I need to swap into the native version of Solana USDC. And so Saber facilitates that, our plan is go for breadth, supporting all these different assets, and so if you have different wrapped assets from different bridges as well as different wrapped assets from different blockchains, supporting that transfer between whatever you need. And so you think of it as this hub where maybe it acts like a, essentially, bridge. Say I'm going from Ethereum to a chain like Avalanche, and bridge right now from a Ethereum to Avalanche doesn't have enough liquidity. Theoretically, I could just go into Solana then transfer that within Saber, and then go into Avalanche. So yeah, I definitely see us being this liquidity hub within all of DeFi, not just Solana.
Saurabh Sharma: Yeah, I mean when you think about the addressable market, I think obviously that grows exponentially as you start thinking about multiple chains and so forth. And for a broader audience, Wormhole, we talked about that, Wormhole is a bi- directional decentralized token bridge between Solana and Ethereum, and then obviously expanding to BSC and Terra, and hopefully in potentially more, so that allows us token bridging and liquidity movements across chains. Just on that topic though, and I think you touched upon you being partnered to many projects, but in some sense, we've seen some early shades of you being a little bit of a platform. So can you share more about your roadmap? We've seen some examples of apps like Sunny built on top of you, and in many ways, do you see more opportunities like that? Maybe Phantom using you at the backend and providing the interface on the top or other developers building it on Saber?
Dylan: Yeah, that definitely is our main focus right now. So I think Sunny is a very good example. They're a yield aggregator similar to Yearn, decide to build on Saber, and then within a week of launching, they had$ 3 billion of TBL. Basically all of our TBL. And so I think there's a huge opportunity right now for people to be building on top of Saber. Obviously it's the highest TBL protocol right now in Solana so there's just so much untapped liquidity people can be using for different applications. And I've talked to some different teams, for example, Perpetual exchanges using Saber liquidity pools as a form of collateral. Right now with lending markets, I'd say something like Compound or Arby, there's a ton of them that just launched over the past few months. None of them are, I'd say, a winner yet, they're all in the early stages, and so I definitely think adding Saber LPs as a form of collateral would be a good way to grow even faster. So personally, I've been spending a lot of my time just talking to different teams and figuring out ways we can integrate with each other. Apart from that, just supporting more on this cross- chain vision, I've been working really closely with the Wormhole team, and even apart from just asset transfers, we're really thinking about how can we take Wormhole, which the Wormhole protocol itself is really meant for arbitrary messages, asset bridging is just one form of messaging that you can build on top of Wormhole, but for example, Terra has a really good strategy for UST where in Anchor, you can earn 20% fixed. What if there's a way to basically send that message over through Wormhole in Solana, and therefore the user themselves are staying in Solana and all their assets are in Solana, but because that message is happening, somehow you could facilitate using a different protocol from the Terra blockchain. And so those are a lot of things we're thinking about. And then the last piece is governance, thinking about staking of the SPR token and how that plays into governance, how to decentralize this application even more, how the DAO operates, stuff like that.
Saurabh Sharma: Yeah, I think that was going to be my next question. Governance is still relatively new to Solana. We haven't seen that evolve as much. I think Mango is doing some good work around the early incarnations of that. What is your roadmap around that? Where are you in that process? And things that you can share, or if not, then maybe just a early view onto what you want to get to.
Dylan: Yeah, huge shout out to the Mango team. I'd say that their DAO product is extremely polished. I'd say I think our DAO model will fall similarly to how theirs works, learning also from Compound, Governor Alpha, Governor Bravo, I think that's the direction that we want to take for the DAO. In terms of how that plays with our token as well, SPR is a governance token and I see it working maybe a similar way to Beaker, where you stake this token and then it's like this membership now for being part of the DAO. You can vote on proposals, you can vote on, they have these different gauges, which is how many liquidity mining incentives go to each different pool. Yeah, those are all things that we're thinking of and have started in the early process of building, and hopefully can get all this stuff out within the next few months.
Saurabh Sharma: On the surface, it will look to everyone that you guys grew really fast, 4 billion TBL in no time, but I'm sure there are a lot of challenges at the backend, sleepless nights. And I know when we've talked a couple of times, you've just been running around. Can you share some of the challenges as well? Apart from all the positives here, what you guys went through. Maybe some horror stories.
Dylan: Yeah, crypto is a really unique place to build in just because it's so much more open. Analysis, especially if you have a live token, you have people who actually have some interest that's more than just being a fan, they actually have a part of your network. And so it's been a pretty interesting journey, I'd say, definitely dealing with community and all of that. In terms of actual horror stories, I'd say we've only had one pretty major issue. When we wrote our initial program for liquidity mining, the way the calculations worked is that there was a rounding error. Different assets within Saber have different numbers of decimal points and because of that, once you get into really big amounts, those different rounding error issues can get big. And so as the Saber TBL grew, for pools like USDC, USDT, which grew really, really fast, the amount of SPR rewards that people were receiving weren't as high as they should be because of that rounding error. And so the way to fix it was we actually had already been planning on migrating our farm contracts to this protocol called Quarry Protocol, and we talked about this in the beginning as well, we really see everyone adopting to these same protocol standards, that way it's easier to integrate. So for Sunny, the yield aggregator, they could easily integrate new farms if all of them are using the same Quarry standard, whereas right now they're treating Saber as this one- to- one thing that they had to build a very custom integration for. And so we already planned on moving to Quarry Protocol, but this bug accelerated that, and luckily it wasn't any kind of really breaking bug. And right now, we're actually finishing the code for an airdrop to basically give the missing SPR tokens to those people who were yield farming in the pools, but I mean I think it's just code has bugs, it's inevitable, and it's about choosing what are the right bugs to focus on a time, namely security of the actual inaudible itself.
Saurabh Sharma: As I say, it's hard to hide in crypto. The community is out there, the code is out there, but in some sense that keeps you on your toes and crosstalk extreme accuracy. Maybe the last question I had for today was it seems that you were already in the minds of leveraging your experience with Saber to build more and support more projects. I think you've shared publicly about Ship Capital. Can you share more about what is Ship Capital, what kind of opportunities are you pursuing, and so forth?
Dylan: Yeah, so Ship Capital is this, I guess, more formal group we created for things we're already doing ourselves. So from building Saber, and also Uber Swap is in the protocol that we were in the early stages of, which is an AMM on Celo. We learned a lot about what it takes to actually launch a protocol, get the initial community running, decentralize it further. And so I wanted to basically take those learnings into helping a lot more early protocols out. Right now, we're really focused on the Solana ecosystem, it's where we feel like we can provide the most value right now, and so just been working a lot of different early teams to help them on whatever's missing within their team. I think a lot of teams right now, there's people who are good at developing, people who are good at tokenomics, at different parts of it. Really the idea of Ship Capital is how can we fill the gaps in order to make this protocol really successful early on? And yeah, really excited about that. Mostly focused on the DeFi space, although we have been exploring other things within NFTs and crypto gaming, which especially I'm interested in, so hopefully have a lot of cool Ship Capital projects launching in the next couple months.
Saurabh Sharma: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dylan, for today, obviously phenomenal conversation, and we would love to have you back as you build and deliver more. Thank you.
Dylan: Awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to this month's episode of The Jump Off Point, an original podcast by Jump Capital. If you have an idea for the show or know of someone who would make a great guest, please contact podcast @ jumppath. com.( silence).
Jump Capital's Crypto Co-Lead Saurabh Sharma sits down to talk with Dylan Macalinao, Co-Founder of Saber. One of the earliest Dapps on Solana, Saber has quickly become the largest stablecoin swap in the ecosystem. After reaching $4bn TVL at their peak in record time and an active community behind it, we're excited about what lies ahead for the company. Tune in for a riveting conversation with this multi-talented founder.